The Business Leadership Podcast

You are listening to the Business
Leadership Podcast with Edwin.

Paul: I'm Paul Newton, creative producer
of the Future Narrator miniseries, and

I'm joined by Ed Rozzo, the founder
of the Business Leadership Podcast.

We are recording live at Web Summit in
Vancouver 2025, and we're here exploring

how today's leaders shape the future, not
just through strategy, but through story.

We believe that a strong point of
view is what inspires communities,

builds movements, and cuts through
the noise in uncertain times.

So let's dive into this conversation.

Today's guest has built, uh, multiple
successful tech misses businesses and the

co-founder partnerships that power them.

T George is a serial entrepreneur
and tech founder whose career spends

multiple ventures, including a unicorn.

All launched alongside the same co-founder
with two decades of experience navigating

the highs and lows of startup life,
she's become a leading voice on what

it really takes to build and sustain
a thriving co-founder relationship.

She's the author of the Co-Founder's
Handbook, A No Fluff Guide

to Structuring, managing and
Strengthening Founder Partnerships.

And through the Co-Founders Hub, Tanis
now helps entrepreneurs find the right

partners access the tools they need.

And build ventures that go the distance.

This, this one's, for anyone who's
ever asked, do I need a co-founder

and how do I make it work?

Welcome to the Business Leadership

Edwin: Podcast, tennis.

Tanis: Thank you.

Happy to be here.

Edwin: How, how, how's your, how's
your Well, I'm super excited.

I'm, I mean, first off, you know, helping
co-founders co-exist, I think, I think

you're saving like, a lot of mental
struggles that many of us entrepreneurs

are probably went through before.

Oh,

Tanis: the stories I have heard are,
are heartbreaking, to be honest.

Very much so.

And you know, it, it was, it's
my way of kind of giving back

to the community I wanted to.

Find a way that after I've had this long
career, uh, you know, the ability to give

back to the entrepreneurs and, and help
flourish and grow businesses, this really

was the niche that I could talk from.

So I, I was very excited to, you
know, find this important topic and

to be able to like, dive into it and

Edwin: help others.

Amazing.

And before we really dive into
that, um, t as I, you were sitting

here, web Summit Vancouver, um,
this is, seems to be, we're.

You belong.

We're surrounded by startups and founders.

I, I'd love it.

We're in day two right now.

I'd love it if you could just share maybe
the first thing that comes to mind, a

highlight from, from your time here.

Tanis: You know what,
it's, it's a, my hometown.

I've been, um, speaking
at Web Summit in Lisbon.

Um, I spec, I spoke at collision in
Toronto and just didn't have it here

now in Vancouver and our backyard.

Um, I'm just so excited.

For, um, the, you know, all of
North America to put a spotlight

on our city here and to be able to
see that the tech community really

thrives here in, in Vancouver and in
Canada, and to hopefully uplift it.

So Web Summit is an incredible,
incredible conference for all that reason.

Edwin: Yeah, and I'm happy to be
in Vancouver at the culture here.

And just to showcase the shut
the culture of Vancouver, right?

Yeah.

And it is totally different from.

The other West coast cities.

Oh, for sure.

Absolutely.

And obviously Toronto
we're from, and you got

Tanis: the sun yesterday and
the rain today, so you get

to see it in all it glory.

I, I love

Edwin: it.

So, um, Tice, I'd love it if we
could just jump, jump right in.

I know you mentioned it, but can
you tell us about the co-founders

hub and the problem you're
solving in the startup culture?

And founder relationships.

Tanis: Yeah, so, um, my background as
you had mentioned is, uh, I built four

tech companies with the same co-founder.

We built our first company
right out of high school.

We were friends in high school
and, you know, we really

stumbled through our partnership.

We were fortunate to, uh, have built
such an incredible relationship in

school and then, uh, we were able
to translate that into business.

But, uh, as we continue to grow, I
started to hear from founders who would

ask me like, how have you done it?

Mm.

And I joke that the, that the quote
was, how are you built multiple

companies with the same person
and you haven't killed each other?

Yeah.

You know, like that was the real question.

And I, I questioned myself about that.

Why would that be?

And.

And as I began to just speak with
other co-founders, uh, to hear

their stories, why did you fail?

Why did you win?

I started to find these trends
that, you know, really were like

pointers to what would make a
partnership flourish and what, what

could actually send it into decline.

And I just thought, you know what?

I need to really dive into this.

Because there's a lot of assistance
from say, coaches or people who

are, you know, um, mentors or, or
corporate coaches, that kind of thing.

But real advice from those who've
been in the trenches that was lacking.

And so that's when I decided to
write the book because I had so much

information and I thought, I need to
walk people through from the very first

question, should I get a co-founder
to, how do I find a co-founder

to, how do I secure a co-founder?

How do we decide equity roles, titles?

How do we.

You know, go through that whole
process into now we're in a

partnership, how do we make it work?

You know, how do we ride this
rollercoaster ride of a business

and then come out on the other
end still as friends and succeed?

And then ultimately, how
do we deal with conflict?

How do we, and how do we exit?

Because at the end, every partnership
exits hopefully in a good way,

but you know, sometimes not.

And so how do we do that with grace and
that we don't burn bridges and that we

can keep moving forward and be friends?

So that's where the book came from.

Edwin: I make it amicably, you
know, I mean, it's, it's amazing.

And I'm really.

Happy that someone's on the
forefront of really the health

of, of two individuals, basically.

Yeah.

Who are trying, trying to make
the, the world a better place.

Yeah.

And, and it's amazing that, you know,
you, you wrote the book about this, right?

So wrote the book.

So you wrote the book, Uhhuh
of Co-Founder Relationships.

And so I'm really curious
how, since the book had.

Been released.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, aside from your personal
experiences with the same co-founder Yeah.

And writing a book.

Yeah.

Like where is your point of view
now as you're navigating and

being in communication Yeah.

With community?

Yeah.

And how does, and how do, how,
you know, how do you see it

differently now in terms of, yeah.

Where you were before.

Tanis: You know, one of the, one of the
titles that I end up kind of putting

to it, or one of the, the, the insights
that I discovered is that the co-founder

partnerships really like the Trojan horse.

You know, it comes in, in the very
beginning, um, and sometimes on

the other side, once it's in, you
don't realize it, you invite it in.

I'm inviting in a
co-founder into my business.

And then if you don't do the proper
due diligence, if you don't have the

really hard conversations, if you don't
do the hard work in the beginning,

that co-founder comes in or that
partnership comes into your business.

And like you said, it's a Trojan
horse opens up inside and it's just

filled with nothing but struggle.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, and ways where,
where you can often fail before

you even start your business.

Just signing that partnership agreement,
you've already doomed yourself If

you haven't done that due diligence.

And so that's one of the insights
that I've realized if I am able to get

somebody before they start a partnership,
there's so much that we can do to kind

of really make sure that, um, like
I said, the conversations in place,

the expectations are communicated.

No one's expecting the other person
to do something, and then finding

out, oh, why didn't you do it?

Well, you never told me,
or we never discussed.

Yeah.

And so really being able to get
to somebody early on is great.

And then of course, um, helping people
through those early stages where

it's really the honeymoon stage.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

We are like, we're gonna, we're
we're building the next Facebook.

We're like, you know, we're gonna succeed.

Everyone's a, everything's glorious.

Um, but those hard times come
and so we really need to, uh,

help them to understand that
before those hard times come.

You gotta be intentional now.

Gonna be intentional when it feels
like you don't need to be intentional.

Now is the time to set that
framework before the emotions and

the resentment and the mistrust
and all those things pop into play.

Let's create that framework now.

Paul: So obviously right outta high
school, you just knew all this, right?

Oh, totally.

Oh my gosh.

Prodigy.

I was

Tanis: a prodigy.

You're an expert.

What the book exactly.

I started

Paul: And you're an expert on
relationships and navigating all this

with your, your friend outta high school.

And

so what do you think is unique
about you that you, you could just

stick with it for all these years?

Tanis: You know, I think our
secret sauce, I was very fortunate.

Uh, Steven is an incredible,
incredible person.

He is.

Um, he, he.

We ended up, uh, aligning our roles.

He was CEOI was COO often
of, of all of our companies.

And he just is excellent at his role.

But I always say I realize we
have two very great superpowers

between the two of us.

Um, I am excellent at strategy
at sort of, um, identifying all

the particular paths we could go.

Um, but he's excellent
at when we pick a spot.

He's excellent at.

Keeping us on that, whereas I'll just
kind of, I'll just keep looking at options

everywhere and he, he can streamline that.

So that was a really great superpower.

The other thing that I think really helped
us stand apart is that we really could

listen to each other when we disagreed.

Mm-hmm.

Um, we were able to, he would say,
oh, I think we need to take this path.

And I'd be like, I think we need to
take this path and be like, well, why?

And, and, well, I really think
this, and then what could happen at

many times is that, well, I think.

Yes, we decided, oh, you're
more passionate about it,

or you really believe it.

Okay, let's go with what you are doing.

And I think we were really able to
give and take so much that, uh, we

were able to sort of duck and weave,
um, through the complicated, uh,

discussions and situations that we
found ourselves in, in, in our business.

So I think that was our, our two major
superpowers that got us to where we were.

We just.

We were lucky to find each
other, let's put it that way.

Paul: So the, the fortune came into play.

Yes.

But I mean, you, you must have some
way of managing emotions or the

different, like the things that
just want to bubble up and explode.

Tanis: Yeah.

You know, laughter is a big one.

Like we, we, we laugh a lot.

Um, we spend, um, a lot of time
not just in business, but also

sharing our lives together.

I think that's another
big piece of it as well.

Um, but.

Communicating.

Uh, another piece of our, as we built
our business, we were big white boarders.

So we would, we would often, frequently
have this whiteboard and I called it our

choose our own adventure, where we would.

Draw out all the possible, you know,
ways our business could go right

down to the very last decision.

Um, but what we didn't realize
was that was really aligning our

vision together and then we'd
go off and do our, our thing.

But those whiteboarding sessions
where we truly saw all the options for

the business and we really talked it
through, it took away a lot of those.

You know, um, questions about,
you know, which direction I'm

going or how do we, how do I make
a decision when he's not there?

Or vice versa.

But we knew the direction we were
going together so we could make

these decisions separately and
still be aligned, um, as we go.

And I think those real like white boarding
sessions ended up being a really key

piece of our, of our success because
it kept us, uh, on the same path often.

Paul: And and do you think the
whiteboarding like allowed you

both to feel heard and seen?

Oh, totally.

Tanis: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Like what, what do you think about this?

And oh, how about if we did that?

And it just, it, it, every
whiteboarding session was almost

exciting too because, um, if you
don't do that, if you're just sort of.

Even if it's in your brain or
you're just sort of thinking about

it, you don't just see all the
possibilities that your company has.

And it's actually really invigorating
and really exciting that it's

like, oh, I'm not just stuck here.

I really have control of
our future in this business.

And we could, you know,
map those paths out.

And I think it, yeah, I think
it, it, it made, it kept, it

kept the journey exciting.

Um,

Paul: and then it's almost
like it, it always turned

things into to more like you.

Yeah, definitely.

You weren't losing, you were like winning.

Oh

Tanis: yeah.

And then, oh, what about this?

Yeah.

What about that?

Oh, we could do this.

We could do that.

But then in the end, we were able
to go, okay, we see all this now,

but where are we gonna go to today?

Where, how, what's the next,
what single step that we're gonna

take forward into this path?

And so again, we were just always aligned
and, and I see so many co-founders

who, who don't do that, who don't.

You know, you ask one, where
are you gonna be in five years?

And one says, I'm, we're acquired.

The other one says, oh, we're
probably getting ready to pass the

company on to my, my oldest son.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Well maybe you should
talk to another, right.

So we do those kind of questions with
co-founders just to make sure, find out

what is their health of their relationship
are, are you guys on the same page?

You know, those questions
can be really telling.

And

Paul: do you have like a, a sense that
you, like you sniff things out, you like

take one look and you're like, Ooh, yeah,

Tanis: you know what?

No, no, because I think as founders
we've become really, really good

at wearing a mask in public.

Um, we always, as founders
have to be the confident ones.

We have to carry the weight of that
responsibility of the business.

So we're always kind of putting, we're,
we know how to put the front on that.

All is well, you know, so our
investors are confident and are.

Customers and our employees are all
confident, so you don't always see from

the outside co-founders if there's issues.

A lot of times everyone's
like, oh no, we're great.

And then I get an email.

You know, that night from one of the
co-founders saying, we're a mess.

We haven't talked, you know,
we're, we're speaking to each other

through our office manager right
now, you know, like, we need help.

You know, and so it's, uh, or one
co-founder's like I have, I wanna exit

and I don't know how to tell my partner.

And, um, I, I just, I, I don't
wanna do this anymore and help me.

It's all that stuff that is being
internalized that they don't

feel comfortable or afraid to,
to put forward to their partner.

And so.

I like to help them get
those conversations going.

Paul: And I mean, I know you've
navigated a lot of things Yeah.

But like, did you ever feel at that point?

Oh yeah,

Tanis: totally.

Absolutely.

Especially Trulio was a,
was a hard one for me.

When we started Trulio, I had
two kids under the age of two and

uh, I initially wasn't even like
going to be a part of the company.

We were just gonna, I was
just gonna be silent actually.

And, um.

And then when I kind of got pulled in
and, and realized the potential and we

got excited about it, and I, you know,
I always say entrepreneurship always

sucks you right back in once you leave.

And so I was back in it again.

Um, but I, it was a struggle for me just
to be able to be mom and COO of a, of

a rocket ship tech, uh, tech company.

And, uh, so we had to have those
conversations and I was always afraid

to, to, to bring these hard times that
I was having personally, uh, with.

My co-founder to say, Hey, listen,
this is, I'm this time around this

fourth company we're doing together.

It's a hard one.

It's a hard one with all
these extra responsibilities.

And then eventually us deciding
that, um, it, for me, I wanted

to step out of the day to day.

And so six years into the thing,
we found a replacement for

me and we were able to walk.

But that was a hard conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul: Um, so when you get to that point

Tanis: mm-hmm.

Paul: Like, are there things that
should, like, that you should be.

Addressing maybe, you know, a
few, few steps back or, you know.

Yeah.

Oh, definitely.

And what would it be?

Tanis: One of the things I tell
co-founders is at the end of the day, um,

you are the foundation of your business.

And so many times when a foundation or
when the co-founder partnership falls

apart, the company is not falling or
it falls apart, not too far after.

And so I try to explain, listen, just for.

Just for your own personal success,
just really understand those statistics.

And so from early on, there's no
reason why you're not transparent,

authentic, uh, honest with one
another because it doesn't, it

doesn't pay to have one of you.

Um.

You know, not on side or one of you with
a different opinion or one of you looking

a different direction because when the
company falls apart, everybody loses.

So I think of, I often say it as
like you're, you're two people

holding, uh, the wheel of a ship.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, if one thinks they're
gonna go this way and the other

one thinks you're gonna go the
other way, just imagine that tug

that's happening on either side.

And so you can't win.

You can't win when you do that.

So the more honest and the more
transparent you are and the more authentic

you are and the more, um, that you're
able to talk about, you know, what you're

feeling, even on a personal level, even
what's happening with your, you know,

spouse at home and your kids and your
parents and your family around you.

Sharing that with your co-founder, it
gives a lot of color to why maybe you

came in late three times this week and
your co co-founder's not going, oh.

You know, gosh, are you not working?

Like what's the deal?

Right.

So really being honest,
it really pays dividends.

So from the day one,
be honest, be truthful.

Paul: And is that what you brought to
the table, like right since high school?

Tanis: Um, I.

I think so, because we
were such great friends.

You know, I think we, we were, we had
grown to, um, we had grown to, yeah.

Share our lives together, you
know, through the teenage years.

You, you, you're obviously very honest
with each other about life and so Yeah.

I think we, that was something
that we, we did early on.

Yeah.

We shared those stories.

Paul: Ah, that's so nice to see.

It's still carrying you.

Tanis: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're still great friends now.

Edwin: Um, Tana, this is amazing.

I mean.

As I sit here listening to you talk and
share, I think about, you know, many

different opportunities and different
partnerships I've gone through.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, I, I, as a podcaster,
I, I a, I always say my therapy

is just sharing to the world.

Yeah, for sure.

But it takes time.

I'm a tech founder, I'm a, I'm a computer
engineer, so, you know, it took time.

I'm good with the word, but I think
opening up, especially the, the

very technical founders mm-hmm.

That's, that, that's
foreign language, right?

Mm-hmm.

So its, that's like,
it's, it's gotta learn.

And so I'm really happy
that, um, you know, you wrote

the book, you're out there.

Mm-hmm.

You're telling people there's a way.

Tanis: Yes.

Edwin: Uh, so we're really happy to have
you here and really do this, but before

we let you go, I'd love, I mean, you
gave actually too much advice now, but,

but I mean, my, my, my question is like,
what's your last, so the parts of AI

solutions, if it's not around co-founder?

Yeah.

Can you perhaps whatever first comes to
mind, there's no right, right, right.

There's no right or wrong suggestion here.

Any thoughts, final thoughts,
advice or suggestions to either the

founder, the CEO or or the business
leader who's listening today?

Tanis: Yeah.

Just, uh, just some, any kind
of, whatever comes to mind,

business, any best business advice.

It could be life or life, man.

Um,

Edwin: go with the first one that comes.

Tanis: Watch out for ai.

Edwin: Ooh, yeah.

That's a mic drop.

That's a mic

Tanis: drop.

Stay ready.

Edwin: Yeah.

You ready?

That's amazing.

Thank you for joining us on the
Business Leadership Podcast today.

Thank you much.

Yeah.

Tanis: Awesome.

You are listening to the Business
Leadership Podcast with Edwin.