The Business Leadership Podcast

You are listening to the Business
Leadership Podcast with Edwin.

Paul: Good morning.

I'm Paul Newton, creative Director of
the Future Narrator miniseries, and

I'm joined by Edwin Frondozo, host
of the Business Leadership Podcast.

We are recording live at Web Summit
Vancouver 2025, and we're exploring

how today's leaders shape the
future, not just through strategy.

But through story, we believe that a
strong point of view is what inspires

communities, builds movements and cuts
through the noise in uncertain times.

So let's dive into this conversation.

Today's guest has been building with
AI long before it became a buzzword,

and he's still ahead of the curve.

I.

Maxime Guilbot is founder and CEO of Eco.

He a global consulting agency
delivering AI powered DLI Digital

Solutions across five continents.

With over 20 years of experience
in artificial intelligence and

digital transformation, Maxim has
helped organizations from startups

to go global brands the power of
their data to drive innovation

and solve real world challenges.

A French software engineer by training.

Maxim holds dual master's degrees in
artificial intelligence and engineering

and has lived and worked in Shanghai and
Tokyo where he has been based since 2016.

His work spans everything from the FIFA
World Cup to FinTech and healthcare,

all driven by the belief that AI is
the differentiator between companies

that adapt and those that lead.

Edwin: Welcome to the Business
Leadership Podcast, Maxim.

How, how are you doing today?

I'm good, thank you.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Thank, thank you for taking
the time to join us today.

Really, really excited to get into
this, but I just, first off, we're

here at Web Summit Vancouver.

I'd love to.

Hear how you're enjoying it, how, how
impactful it is, and, and maybe one thing

that you're learning from the floor.

Maxime: Um, yeah, no,
it's a amazing venue.

Um, very good to have
Web Summit in Vancouver.

Um, it's very exciting.

Uh, a lot of startups, very dynamic, a
lot of young startups, uh, just showcasing

their innovations is really, really cool.

Edwin: Amazing.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's really,
and we're really enjoying here and

meeting folks like yourself as well.

Just to get started, Maxim, can
you tell, tell me about Echo E and

the problem you are solving in AI
driven digital transformation and

the real world business applications?

Maxime: Yeah, so a big topic, um,
but uh, what we have seen through

the technological transformation
is a wave of businesses.

Dying and new wave of
businesses coming up.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and with AI is going to
be even, even more brutal.

And, um, one of our mission is to help
companies accelerate their transformation.

So actually make sure they can
survive and thrive in this AI era.

And that means setting up.

All their teams, their tools
and rethinking organization.

I don't know how to do this.

So we help companies figure out
what their business might look

like in five years from now, which
is a very difficult exercise.

Um, but in five years from now, we're
going to have free intelligence, um,

probably superhuman, um, AI capabilities
and thinking about how your business

will be at that point in time.

It's very interesting and we have
businesses figure out a way to get there.

Edwin: Yeah, it's, we're, we're
definitely in the interesting times.

And, and I'd be curious, um, in
terms of the work that you and your

organization is doing, especially as
you were talking about, um, really

accelerate, you know, the transformation.

Like what, what, what are the
biggest challenges you're finding,

um, working with these leaders
right now and, and talking about it?

Because you, you just mentioned that, um.

What it may look like.

'cause no one knows, right?

Yeah.

Maxime: No one knows

Edwin: it's best

Maxime: game.

Um, I mean, we, there's a few things that
I think are pretty strong hypothesis.

Like, we, we know AI is gonna get
better, we know it's gonna get cheaper.

Those all like, almost like
loss of physics in a way.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but, um, the exact timing
is unknown and, uh, how future

business models will look like.

Mm-hmm.

You don't have to pretend
to have all those answers.

But at least you have a general direction.

Now, the main challenges is, um, most
people, even some seagulls don't get that.

They don't understand this.

They don't understand the threat,
um, as well as the opportunity

because yes, it's a threat.

If you don't do anything, um,
you're very likely to be disrupted.

But it's also a very good opportunity
because if you, if you, if you actually

invest, um, maybe just 10% or, or
something like that of your revenue, uh,

you will, you have a strong advantage
as an existing business compared to

startups are trying to build from nothing.

Uh, you have clients, you have data, you
have expertise, you have all those things

to actually create a great AI product.

Um, but most unfortunately,
not everybody's get it.

Edwin: Yeah, no, I, no, I, I get that.

And I guess I'm curious and in terms
of, you know, listening to what's

happening, especially at here, at Web
Summit, I'm, you know, when it comes to

you and your experience and a lot of the
research you did within ai, uh, what,

what would be your unique point of view
that you bring now, not only to this

problem, um, and also with your clients?

Um,

Maxime: it's, um.

Yeah.

So AI is a multidisciplinary mm-hmm.

Problem.

Um, so I think what's unique at
Eco is we have all, like, we have

a very wide range of competencies.

So it goes from design, even
how you design a human machine

interface, uh, is very important.

Of course, like backend development and
front end and data science machine and,

and, and all the product management
and the consulting around that.

So it's, and I'm lucky to have, be able to
build along all those time a team that has

all the competencies together and working
together not as like siloed separate

companies that you have co to coordinate.

Uh, so that enables us to go much faster.

Um, and I think that's
one of our, our secrets.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it's not really
secret anymore, but it's just,

but it's a, yeah, it's very, uh, it
took us, I mean, it took me a long time

to actually put that team together.

Wow.

Paul: So you've really just, you're
spending all your time looking into

the future and, uh, you know, maybe
hallucinating, maybe, you know, just

guessing or predicting what all the time.

What, what, what do you, what do you
consider yourself doing in terms of

being a, like a future sort of visionary?

Maxime: Uh, reading is
important, um, and, um.

Yeah, I think reading is the
best advice I could give.

Um, maybe even science fiction in a way.

Uh, sometime it can, you know, think
out of the box and whether this

sci-fi movie or book can actually be,
become something of the future, or

sometimes it also raises very good
questions, ethical, and, uh, as well.

Um.

Yeah.

And, and also believing into it in a way.

So you, you make some hypotheses and
um, of course it might not happen or you

don't really know when it will happen, but
you're not like one or two years precise.

Like you can wait a little bit, right?

Uh, you know, have to, it's
not like a weather forecast.

Um, but then also we really believing
in Israel, so it's like, okay, you make

up happy thiss, and then you're like,
okay, no, this is going to happen.

Now.

You build all those things.

And you might be wrong, but that's
also part of business is taking

Paul: risks.

Yeah.

And I mean, I guess you have to
try, try things and see that they

don't work before you know whether
they're going to work or not.

Yeah, exactly.

But then I guess there's the fact that
like, well if it can't happen right now

today, it's still going to be possible
or going to happen at some point.

Maxime: Right?

Paul: Right,

Maxime: exactly.

So it doesn't really matter if it
happens this, this autumn or next year.

Hm, as long as it's going to happen

Paul: to the overall trends.

And what do you think about, say
the, the pace at which things are

happening and how fast a company has
to adapt or, or in terms of keep up?

Maxime: So it's, um, that's, it's a
really good question because it is

exponential whether we're seeing the,
the development of AI technologies

are going at an exponential rate.

Yeah.

Um, and this is what something
that has human, we already.

Uh, bad at grasping.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and things that move at an exponential
rate because in nature more things are

linear or, um, but yeah, it's like a,
a train we don't really see coming.

Yeah.

And then it's already, you know,
that's a good one you just missed.

Yeah.

That's a good, uh, so I think, yeah,
and AI and the seniority point and.

I think we won't even see it passing.

It's like, oh, well AI is doing
its own research now, and it's like

augmenting itself and it's, it is
not like I'm, I'm not a pessimistic.

Yeah.

I don't, I'm more like an optimistic
Yeah, it's a choice in a way.

Um, I'm not really, I think we, we,
we can unplug AI whenever we want now,

so we don't really have that problem.

But, uh, yeah, I think we're like at this
point now, um, I mean, there is, yeah,

there has been some AI making research
on its own and publishing papers already.

Wow.

Uh, and AI improving, I mean,
AI working on, and the next

V chips is, is happening now.

Paul: Yeah.

Maxime: Um, also on the
algorithmic side, it's also doing

some, some, some improvements.

So yeah, it's already contributing
to its own improvement.

Paul: And, and do you think that it's
possible at all for humans or businesses

to adapt to exponential growth or space?

Yeah, I

Maxime: think some, uh, large
businesses, it's really, really tri.

It's really tricky, um, because
you have to, when you have decades

long organizations that are large,
you really need to rethink how.

The whole structure is set up.

How de even how departments are
siloed and make this then necessarily

don't even make any sense.

Um, and also most of them are not even
well adapted to the digital internet

collaborative environment, the sales
structure and the pre-internet era.

Um, so there are even behind the previous.

Technological
transformations, I would say.

And for them it's, yeah, it's really
tricky because you have basically to

get rid of a lot of people potentially,
and maybe to hire different people and

you need to do this massive changes,
um, which society is not ready for.

Mm-hmm.

It's not ready to accept.

So for those companies, it's really,
really difficult and we're already

seeing this, and if you take traditional
car manufacturers, they can keep up.

They're slowly, slowly dying, so,

Paul: yeah.

Yeah.

So

Maxime: I,

Paul: I guess, you know, I'm asking
like, we've got technology advancing

at the exponential speed, and we
know that like, you know, companies

inch long and people, you know,
they're, they're resistant to change.

They like the way things have been done.

So I'm thinking like, you know,
actually nimble or adaptive companies.

Probably don't need to be like on
the, on the sort of curve like this.

They just need to be a little bit ahead
and keep looking forward with some sort of

Maxime: plan.

Yeah.

I mean, if you just keep improving 1%
per week, um, that's already, it's a,

it's an exponential because it compounds.

Right.

So it doesn't mean it has
to change very quickly.

Yeah.

You just have to continuously change.

Um.

But also as humans, um, we're not
going to have like one education

to educate yourself for one
carrier and do this all our lives.

Like, it's, it's not, it's not possible
anymore because technological change

is just happening very, very quickly.

Yeah.

And more and more quickly.

So we have to have more
like a continuous education.

And things like that, but
AI will have that too.

Yeah, for sure.

Hopefully.

Paul: So.

So what do you think about, um, about
yourself and, uh, I don't know, just like

your, your unique personality traits that
have let you always be this adaptable

or you know, this forward looking and

Maxime: Mm.

Yeah.

I mean, in.

In my background in software engineering,
that's something you have to do.

You always have to be curious and learn
new things because this is an area

that is always moving very quickly.

There's always new languages,
new ways of doing things.

Um,

um, but also, yeah, for my own business,
I also have to, to, to always think about

that or do we stay, um, at the edge.

So.

Also questioning ourselves, and we're
also doing our own, like I'm preaching

these AI transformations to others.

Yeah.

But we're also doing that to
ourselves because, um, since it's

almost 20 years now, we've been
doing, um, things the old way.

So human and keyboards designing, coding,
and uh, and mostly selling human time.

Um, but this will change with AI
because in the next five years, most

of what we do will be done by ai.

So yeah, transforming ourselves
from like a consulting model where

we sell human time to selling our
expertise and mostly executed by ai.

And, uh, yeah.

The cost of software will probably be.

Divided by 10 or a hundred, I don't
know, somewhere in that range.

Um, so we have to, to have a
much higher throughput, uh, to

even keep the business as it is.

Um, so we're working really
hard in transforming ourselves

to become an AI product.

Uh, and that's really exciting in a
way, um, because it's a much better

business model than just having to
do all that work manually is tired.

That's right.

It's a lot of work.

Yeah.

But if we can help build a
machine that do the work for us.

Is amazing.

So I see it in a positive way,
even though some people asking

me like, are you not scared?

Or you're not like you're just
shooting yourself in the food by

like replacing yourself with AI and,
and, and all this, but I don't see

Paul: it in that way.

And so that's what you see like.

Eco he doing is building.

Yeah.

Building out an AI product that
does what you're doing right now?

Yes.

Maxime: Oh, we have to.

Yeah.

Again, we have to because if we, if
we don't do it in the next five years,

some people will come to us and be like,
why should give you $10,000 and there's

this other blah, blah, blah product.

Yeah.

Dot com, they can do
it for a hundred bucks.

Yeah.

And so what are we going to, what, what
are we going to be our answer to this?

Yeah.

If we Yeah, I

Paul: would

Maxime: be like, I don't know.

Yeah, no, exactly.

Paul: So, so then when, what, when
your $10,000 offering now becomes

a, like a product that does it for a
hundred dollars a month or whatever,

where do you go so that you can
still, you know, be consulting at.

At $10,000 something for whatever, like
what, what's the next step for a company

when they productize their offering?

Maxime: Well, so the role of, of the
team members will dramatically change.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Um, so we are a 50 people
organization, so it's.

It's easy for us.

We're not like thousands of people, right?

So, so for us it's very easy to
rethink of like, okay, now you, you're

going to focus on more like client
relationship and, um, you're going

look at this part of the model and
make sure like set up skips and improve

the machine that does the work, right?

And how you can put your expertise.

Into it.

Um, so I think this is what most
people will do and then handle,

uh, all the edge cases and also
bring a luxury human touch maybe.

Yeah.

So the, the, the, the
human touch will be Yeah.

Luxury bit and maybe some
people will be willing to pay

to pay 99 plus the human option.

So, uh, how you can.

Um, yeah, maybe we can make some
parallel with some industrial

products where you can buy at Ikea
some furniture, which is really nice

and, and, and cheap and affordable.

Or you can go to an autism and get
something homemade custom, uh, custom

that has, you know, in different
craft and different qualities.

So maybe you'll have the
same thing for software.

Mm-hmm.

And they use it so it feels
like human made, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: I don't know.

Just and, and so do you just see it as
like everyone's getting access to the

same level of quality and standards that
people only some people had because of ai?

Maxime: Mm.

Yeah.

So that's a.

So this is the type of
things we're thinking now

about how we, um, so it's not only about
today, there is a lot of like, like

repeat, lovable, I dunno if you know
those things, but you kind of prompt and

code and maybe you heard of vibe coding.

Yeah.

Um, and that's producing a bit
of random results and Yeah.

Uh.

Uh, we're thinking of something much
higher quality with a feedback loop.

Mm-hmm.

And with actually ai, qa, and,
and, uh, actually design AI

experts that give feedback.

And so when we actually get the
software presented to you, it has

already been tested and tried by ai,
um, like as a, as, as, as a loop.

So we have, um.

For example, if you want a software for
a given person now, um, 40 to 50 years

old, using this on the go in the subway
and like, like a very given person and

then will have those AI tests in those
three, simulating those environments.

Yeah.

And.

Um, so when you see software for the
first time, it has already been tested

by ai, uh, for a few iterations.

Yeah.

So you get something that, um,
is already quite of, it should be

of a very high quality and very,
actually, I want to see this now.

I'm very curious to see this now,
to see what it can produce because

it should be much, actually, much
better at what we're doing today.

Paul: Okay.

And so, you know, you talked about
reading and, uh, science fiction and, um,

and just these crazy different futures
that, uh, whatever you could imagine.

Was there anything that maybe as a, as
a kid you just were like, what if this

could happen or, you know, I wonder
what the future would look like and now

you're just like, oh, it's happening.

Maxime: Um, that's a good question.

Uh, I don't.

I think too much about that
when I was reading of as a kid,

um, I think, yeah, maybe as a kid
was thinking a lot of like flying

cars and, you know, back into the
future type of stuff, you know?

Yeah.

And I guess you heard that quote
saying like, uh, we were expecting

flying cars and we got 140 characters.

Yeah.

So, um, it's not exactly what we
expected, but, um, and I think maybe

disappointed about what the future
has delivered so far because it's,

we don't see all those, uh, things
necessary in the past 20 years, all the.

All the innovation that has
mostly been on a screen.

Mm-hmm.

Um, of course we have and stuff like that.

It is bring a lot of convenience, but,
uh, I think in the day to day, not, not

as much as maybe we wanted, um, but I
think robotics will change a lot of that.

Um, so we start to see those human aid
are being built now and they're entering

maybe some kind of like maturity.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

They're going to get much cheaper
and they're very versatile.

Yeah.

And so you'll be able to program them
to do everything that, what humans can

do because they have the same shape.

Um, so I think that might unlock
a lot of, um, many things.

'cause I think people have been expecting
like, like, can I get my coffee done?

Can I get, you know, all those things.

Uh, so if the price point
get to, um, a level that is.

It becomes affordable, then I think
it will change a lot of things.

Mm-hmm.

So your childhood vision is still coming.

It's like in the pipeline.

Yeah.

But I think, yeah.

And it's slow.

Slowly.

Yeah.

I don't think we're, yeah.

Paul: And, but I mean, still, uh, having
that optimism that you said, you know,

like, this future's gonna be really
good, or, you know, this, like, there's

still so much possibility, like mm-hmm.

Um.

Like, what do you think, uh, that
optimism you bring, like how do you

keep that alive in, in companies
that are really pessimistic?

Maxime: Well, if you, for me, if
you're pessimistic in your business,

like you've given up already, so, so
why are you still around in a way?

Just do something else.

Yeah.

Right.

Uh, or, um, because there's
no point in staying around.

Yeah.

Mostly if you're already giving up.

Yeah.

Uh, so, um, for me, being pessimistic
is kind of key, giving up.

Uh, but we can also see this
for, for example, for things

like, uh, climate change.

We can be pessimistic and, and, and
trying to limit a lot of different things.

We should not do this,
we should not do that.

We should not like being very negative
about all the things and limit a lot of

things, which I'm not saying we should not
do, but I prefer the other side of like.

What can technology do?

Yeah.

Right.

Uh, what can enable, maybe AI can
discover an engineer, um, some bacteria

or like, whatever, um, organisms that
could, you know, change a lot of things.

Um, so I prefer that side.

Yeah.

Of things, what technology
can do more than.

Uh, going backwards and, and,
uh, stopping using or limiting.

Right.

Edwin: Um, Maxim, this
is, it's been amazing.

And for me, when my key takeaways,
you know, and for me, I'm also on

the optimistic, I'm excited we're
in interesting times, if anything.

Mm-hmm.

Um, especially for those who came
up with the internet, like it's

just been, as you said, exponential.

The experience may still be on the
screen, but I think the world's are night

and day from the, from the nineties.

Uh, from the pre-internet,
pre the internet bubble.

I'd love it.

Um, if you, you know, in terms
of just before I close off, if

you could share any final I.

Um, you know, final thoughts, advice,
recommendations, you know, to those

founders, those CEOs, those business
leaders who are now just thinking about,

you know, I think AI is here to stay.

Like, what would be your advice
to be them if they're just

curious about it right now?

Um.

Maxime: Yeah, don't be afraid of
rethinking your entire business

from scratch and, uh, refocus on
what are you actually delivering?

What is the value of your business?

Um, and think about yeah, how
you will differentiate yourself

to another in the future.

Mm-hmm.

And Ally, if you have
some mystery there is.

Way of doing something.

Um, almost like a personality, like
a, a company is, that is kind of

a, of a virtual agent of some sort.

That's right.

Edwin: Yeah.

Maxime: Um, and something, it's, it's
like a huge ship that is already in some

kind of direction, even if you change
the sea, or like, companies kind of

like stay in, in that same momentum.

Mm-hmm.

So try to like, uh, understand.

I understand that and what
it would mean in the future.

I know it's a bit abstract.

Um, I

Edwin: like it though.

But yeah, I like it.

I like it.

I'm glad.

That's amazing.

I mean, like I said, Maxim,
this is great, you know, having

folks like you really like.

Guiding, um, people and who are
trying to navigate this, especially

on the, on the optimistic side, right?

And to empower them, um, and do that.

We wanted to take this time, actually
before we let you go, we wrote this,

we went to Collision last year.

We interviewed, uh, founder CEOs like
yourself and what we got inspired.

And we actually wrote a book called
Future NA for those who are like,

amazing, really building the future.

Thank you.

Creating the vision and we
want to present that to you.

Um, so.

Thank you for guarding everyone,
and thank you for joining us on

the Business Leadership Podcast.

Thanks

You are listening to the Business
Leadership Podcast with Edwin.