The Business Leadership Podcast

Josh: Every human being, every employee,
every worker has this ability to adapt

and grow and deal with adversity and
take advantage of opportunities if

you give them the right environment.

And that is really what
leadership is about.

​
you are listening to the Business
Leadership Podcast with Edwin Fondozo.

Edwin: Good morning, good afternoon,
or good evening, whenever, wherever

you're checking this out is leaders.

on today's episode, I had the opportunity
to sit down with Josh Buren, the founder

and c e o of the Josh Buren Company.

We discussed new ways of
leadership, the future of work, and.

His new book called Irresistible.

He's an accomplished business leader.

Josh also founded Bersen and Associates,
which is now Bersen by Deloitte

and the Josh Bersen Academy, the
professional development platform.

He spent 25 years in product development,
product management, marketing, and.

Sales of E-Learning and other enterprise
technologies at companies, including

digital Think, which is now Convergence,
Arista Knowledge Systems, Sybase and ibm.

We discuss what, what is an Aris
irresistible company and what does it

mean to have a human-centered leadership
strategy specifically while navigating

the flexible work environment going.

Jumping , into leadership, and especially.

Where we are in within our
society and how things are

changing and being post pandemic.

I'd love it for you if you could
share the shift, I guess the shift

from traditional leadership to this
term human-centered leadership and

what's really different about it.

Josh: I've been doing
this now for so long.

I've seen these management fads.

Eras are really themes of management
come and go at different periods of time.

And when I first got involved
in HR in the early two thousands

coming out of a business career
everybody wanted to copy ge.

And everywhere I went, virtually every
company said, how does GE do this?

How does GE does do recruiting?

How does GE do leadership development?

How does GE do performance management?

How does GE.

Pay careers on and on.

And what that was basically was the
institutionalization of the industrial

model of work, which goes back to the
railroads and the oil companies where

the humans were, the labor and the
managers told the labor what to do.

So it was laborers, ver
labor versus management.

And even though not every company was
in the manufacturing industry, virtually

every company ran their business.

This.

and it worked pretty well until, the
1980s or so, when the internet and

all sorts of technologies disrupted
virtually every industry and every

company and companies had to move faster.

They had to distribute the authority
and the responsibility to local levels.

They had to create more
innovation and creativity.

Employees.

Suddenly being asked to take
responsibilities for things that

managers didn't know they needed to do.

So man, the idea that your manager's gonna
tell you what to do all day was silly

because the manager didn't even know what
you were essentially doing or working on.

So this all got flipped around.

. And and so for really a lot of my
career, I've spent time documenting and

studying these new management practices.

I have a book coming out in October called
Irresistible, which is about all this, and

then the pandemic came along and basically
turbocharged this whole thing because

what happened in the pandemic was every.

Faced a life or death experience of
wondering how they were gonna go to

market, who they were gonna sell to,
what they were gonna sell, and of course

whether their employees were even gonna
come back to work, where they were

gonna work, how they were gonna work.

All just all these questions happened at
the same time, and what companies realized

was, wow, if we empower our people and
give them the support and education

and healthcare and safety that they.

they adapt pretty doggone fast, and
they do take care of this company, this

business we're in, and maybe they're
working from home and maybe we gave

them a new job, but they're doing it.

And it's a long answer.

But I think the pandemic is in many
ways, a, an injection of adrenaline

into this trans transformation
that's been going on for 20 or 25.

that is now very clear.

I don't have to explain
what's going on to people.

Why you have to take care
of your employees anymore.

Everybody knows this now.

And then of course, we now have this
incredibly competitive labor market.

Virtually every company has
having a hard time hiring 30%

turnover rate in the economy.

So it's all about being what I
call an irresistible company.

And that's a new concept of
leadership, which we've decided

to call human-centered leader.

Edwin: a couple things that was
coming to mind, all these digital

transformations that were supposed
to happen in 24, 36 months, right?

Or longer, they happen overnight, right?

Because the fear of management or
the executives like, oh, I don't

know if the ch the change management,
I love that you put it, is.

the people are adaptable.

Josh: one of the things
that happened to me that.

Brought this home to me was during the
beginning of the pandemic my daughter

wanted us to go out and take care
of some of the homeless people in

the, I live in Oakland, California.

So we went on around Christmas, it
might have been the year, it was the

year of the pandemic the first year.

And we visited a bunch of homeless,
sheltered, and then gave a

bunch of people a lot of food.

And I went, men and talked to a
lot of these homeless folks and I.

They're in the worst possible
situation in their lives.

You couldn't think of a worse environment
to be in, and they're living their life.

They're taking care of each other.

They're figuring out how to get by day.

And I realized what we're really dealing
with is what I call this unquenchable

resilience of the human spirit.

And that is that every human
being, every employee, every.

Has this ability to adapt and grow
and deal with adversity and take

advantage of opportunities if you
give them the right environment.

And that is really what
leadership is about.

It's creating an environment and an
alignment and a sense of shared vision

where the average person in any level,
in any job can say, oh, I'm in, I'm.

, I'm gonna figure this out and I'll
be part of the team to to take this

company forward and do whatever
it is that needs to be done.

And that is the fundamental, belief that
I have in human beings and management.

Now, I have worked for people
that don't feel this way.

I've worked for managers that clearly do
not respect individuals and they believe

that people should be rated and ranked.

And, everybody should be com
should pitted be pitted against

each other for competition.

I, I think that's more or
less proven to be incorrect.

There are still companies
that operate that.

And I think young managers that
maybe haven't learned this in

their time so we're trying to,
institutionalize these ideas.

The other thing that I just wanna
mention on this idea of human-centered

leadership, the reason we called it
that, It's a silly name because of course

leadership is human-centered but the
idea was in every business situation,

whatever it is, a project, a sales deal
of, something that's, that you're trying

to get accomplished, there's the business
issues and there's the human issues,

and you can ignore the human issues.

And you're talking about the business
issues and why isn't this happening and

how come you guys aren't doing that?

or you can say maybe there's
something about the environment or

the clarity of the mission or the
skills or the pay or the reward or

the culture that's getting in the way.

And you have to balance both as a business
person, you have to deal with the business

issues and be fairly ruthless about them.

But then you have to sometimes just flip
your mind in the other direction and.

Why is this not happening the
way I would like it to happen?

Is it me?

Maybe it's me, . So those are all
the things that I think companies

are becoming very aware of.

Edwin: with, this flexible
environment or flexible arrangement.

It's flipping back now
with the pandemic over.

Some organizations are
saying, you know what?

Work from home is not working.

I need everyone in.

why is it important to keep this flexible
work arrangements now moving forward?

Josh: I have two thoughts on that.

The first is, If you think you're the
world is going to go back to the way

it was, you have to give up on that.

Life only goes in one direction.

It doesn't go backwards, it goes forward.

This paradigm of everybody being
in the office all the time.

Just because that's the
place you work is over.

So get used to that.

So then the question is, how often
and when and how do we meet in the

office or where do we meet that is
going to optimize life going forward?

And yes, there's a lot of data that
shows, and I have this experience

in my company, you have to get
together face to face for many things.

Strategic conversations, complex
issues, projects, getting to know each.

There are lots of reasons why people
have to be physically co-located.

But every minute of every
day, no, not necessarily.

There's a lot of time wasted in commuting.

People have families, they have dogs.

They have parents at home.

They have personal errands to attend to.

They don't wanna spend the
money on traffic, the time.

There's lots of reasons why commuting
is sometimes counterproductive.

For me, as somebody who used to
travel every single week, I'm now

talking to more people, getting more
work done virtually than I ever did

when I traveled all over the world.

I'm getting more.

Saving money.

So what you have to think about as
a manager is what are the rules of

engagement that you wanna have on
flexible work that are appropriate

for the kind of work you do
and the the team that you have.

And I think we're gonna end up, in a
world where, people do work from home

once or twice, one or two days a week.

If you're a line worker in a hospital
or in a restaurant or something,

obviously you can't do that.

But but for those of us, those 30
or 40% of us that are white collar

workers, I think we're going to
become, much more accepting of that.

We're gonna get better and better tools.

I wouldn't be surprised if we
have 3D virtual reality at

home within a few years.

And that's, that's the way I see it.

And I think some of these statements
that come out from CEOs that I

want everybody back in the office.

They're gonna really, their
employees aren't gonna be happy.

They're gonna lose people by
going, being too rigid about it.

Edwin: And I think the evidence is out
there for those who have voiced their

opinions of coming back to the office.

They would see, you would see some
and you mentioned it, you mentioned

the numbers in terms of turn turnover.

And part of it might be because the
organizations they are in are not

changing or not moving towards this.

Get over it.

This is the way work is.

Keep it flexible

Josh: and I remember, and Edwin,
one of one of the other paradigms

that I ex remember very well when
people started bringing their mobile

phones to the office and checking
their text messages in meetings.

I remember being very insulted that
somebody would po could possibly

pick up a phone and message somebody
else in the middle of a meeting.

I got over it.

. How long did it take?

Josh ? Just the way it's, I
didn't like it for a while.

And then I said, Hey, it's just the way,
it's, this is one of these paradigms that

just changed and we're not gonna go back.

. So we gotta get, just get used to it.

We

Edwin: gotta get used to it.

Get over it.

And think about how to move forward.

I'd love if you could share from your
experience or from your research is some

practical strategies and for those who
need to embrace the power of the, every

individual and leveraging the technology.

Right.

Josh: Everybody who's ever been
a manager has gone through this

challenging journey personal.

Of suddenly being responsible for
the performance of somebody else.

If you've been a parent, you know what
it's like to have kids, but if you haven't

been a parent and a lot of people are
promoted into management, at an age when

they don't have kids it's a new world.

And you know what I've often said is
moving into leadership is not a new job.

It's a new career.

All of a sudden you are
getting paid to facilitate.

Drive or enable a whole bunch of
other people to do their jobs as

opposed for you to do your job.

So your job is very different and
you have to learn your own journey.

And I think everybody leads in their
own unique way because it's one of

the things you do as a leader is you
bring your personal style to the role.

I think the biggest thing that
I would, advise young leaders

and managers is to listen a lot.

Sometimes it's a lot better to
say nothing and pay very close

attention to what's going on.

than it is to start telling people
what to do or giving lectures or

speeches or whatever it may be.

Now, this is not, it's counterintuitive
and I think when you're new to

management, you feel like I'm the manager.

I need to say something.

I'm the boss.

I need to tell people what to do.

I have to make the decision because
somebody has to make the decision.

So it better be me.

Maybe it, maybe you don't have to
make the decision, maybe somebody

else will make the decision for you.

So there's a lot of subtleties to leader.

That you learn over time.

And and so that's number one.

Number two is checking yourself
to understand how well you respect

the differences of each individual
and the diversity of thought,

and the diversity of your team.

We used to do this thing at Deloitte
where we used to have this little

tool called business chemistry.

Or you would as assess,
you would assess people.

Based on, are you a guardian?

Are you a pioneer?

Are you a, are, what
type of person are you?

Every project or team I've
ever been associated with,

there's, people are different.

Some people are very conservative.

Some people are very risk taker.

Some people are very careful.

Some people are very innovative
and not very careful.

Some people are very
creative, some people are not.

Some people are.

Analytics, some people aren't, right?

You're gonna have a team of people.

They're not all gonna be the same.

And you're gonna have to learn how to
work with all of them and figure out

how you can help them work together.

And that's another big
part of being a leader.

If you think you're gonna hire
everybody who's just like you, you're

not gonna be a very good manager.

And that is a natural tendency
is to recruit people that look

and feel exactly the way you.

. That's another blind spot people have.

So there's a lot of things you learn
about leadership and it takes years.

I would say the third thing
I'd say about, a manager or a

leader, give yourself some time.

know, The first couple of
months it's gonna be different.

And the first couple of years you're
gonna look back and say, wow, I've really

gotten better at this and find a mentor.

And, I spend a lot of time watching people
that I respect and learning from other

leaders and observing behaviors at work.

And that's a lot of, to me what
the learning process is all.

Edwin: when you get promoted,
it's a new career, right?

And that's something for new business
leaders, new managers, You have to think

of that and take that to heart like this.

You're at your net new day zero.

You're not gonna know everything
about your job at all.

You still gotta learn.

You gotta turn, you

Josh: might know the job.

Yeah.

And don't assume that being a
manager is the best job in the world.

, you may decide you don't like
being a manager or leader.

You know what I, I didn't really move into
leadership roles till I was in my forties.

I spent the first 20 years of my career.

Mostly it's an individual contributor.

working on projects or teams,
and I was fine with that.

, as I got older and I just found I
needed, to take on more responsibility

in different role organizations, I ended
up becoming a, much more seasoned leader.

I never wanted to do it
earlier in my career.

I did pass, b other people pass me
by in terms of money and, titles

and stuff, and I just let it go.

When you're ready.

And if you get thrown into a
leadership opportu, go for it.

It's a lot of people get pro
promoted through what, we used

to call Battlefield promotions.

Hey, there's nobody out here to do this.

Why don't you do it?

Okay.

Boom.

Suddenly you're a leader,

Edwin: We talk about recruitment
and, finding the right culture.

how do these managers or
these organizations adopt

to become irresistible, like
within their chosen market?

Josh: There's, in my book there's
seven big principles to doing this,

but I think the fundamental thing from
the standpoint of recruiting and and

management is for the people that I work
with in companies, mostly HR executives

and HR departments building a culture
of leadership and talking about leader.

And talking about our values and our
philosophies is absolutely sacrosanct.

And then I had an interesting
conversation with one of the

largest tech companies in the world.

I won't mention who it is, but
everybody knows who they are.

They were redesigning their
performance management process.

Which became a very burdensome,
overloaded, bureaucratic,

stupid thing that they developed
years of years and years.

And they wanted to redo it.

And they asked me, do you have any advice?

Should we have goals?

Should we have.

Quarterly reviews, should we have pay
for performance, blah, blah, blah.

And I said what's your
philosophy of leadership?

And they all looked at each
other that's a good question.

We haven't really talked about it.

Come on.

You have to have those conversations.

Are we a hard driving company?

Are we gonna take the hill at all costs?

Are we gonna crush our competition?

Are we gonna get rid of
all the people who don't?

, maybe you are that, if so, talk
about it, but maybe you're not that.

And to some degree, your identity
as a company should reflect the

customers you're trying to sell to
and the market you're playing in.

So like in healthcare for example,
you'll find that healthcare

organizations are very caring.

companies because they're caring for
people all day and they wanna hire

people and promote people and reward
people for their caring instincts.

If you're in the tech industry, it's
probably a little more of a war.

In tech it's brutal.

One month you're in the lead and the
next month somebody just killed you.

You get to have those conversations
and then those kinds of conversations

allow you to develop leaders, hire
leaders, decide who's appropriate

for different leadership, and that
really helps the company a lot.

And I think you have to have those
conversations every year or too,

you can't just do it once and then
assume you know that it all stuck.

Edwin: I know the book is coming out.

who should be listening to it
and reading it when it comes out.

Josh: Sure.

So the name of the book is Irresistible
the Seven Secrets to Employee

Focused Enduring Organizations.

And it was originally written
for HR executives, but it turned

into a book for management also.

And it's really a a book of
stories of hundreds of companies

I've interviewed over the.

that have found ways to build irresistible
organizations focused on employees and

obviously business performance and growth.

And what are some of those things
that, I've learned and the seven,

I won't go through the seven things
right now, but they're all things that

you'll read and you say, yeah, okay,
that's obvious, but how do I do that?

There are, there's truisms.

Sound easy, but they're not, like one is
teams not hierarchy, that sounds easy.

Yeah, let's just have teams.

But how do you run the teams and
how do you operate the teams and

how do you scale the teams and how
do the teams work with each other?

And then what is your role as a manager
or a leader, or does every team have

a leader and a functional manager?

And so the book takes
you through these seven.

Characteristics of these irresistible
companies and gives you lots of tips.

So I hope everybody who's in
any role in business has an

opportunity to read the book and
learn from it because it came from.

Literally hundreds of conversations
with amazing companies around the

world, learning from many leaders and
many HR people that I spent time with.

Edwin: I'm curious, what are you doing?

Is there any personal practices
that you are doing so you can

continually grow as a leader?

Or some things that you're
stacking on or reading and

researching just for yourself to

Josh: improve.

Thank Edwin.

Thank you for asking.

By the way, thank you for inviting
me to do this kind of a talk.

I'm in my mid to late sixties.

, I'm at this point in my life where I
don't have anything to prove to anybody

and I love the work and I love helping
companies and helping individuals.

I think I'm at this point where I'm
trying to learn how to be a leader and

not be involved in every decision and not
run the company on a day-to-day basis.

I have a management team in this company
that's very, And I don't agree with

everything they wanna do, but I'm learning
to not get involved in every decision.

as an entrepreneur, that's very hard.

Yes.

And as an engineer, of course I'm an
engineer, so I like to tinker with things.

So that's one thing for me.

And the second thing is to
remind myself of my values.

As you get into sort of the second or.

Stage of your life and, I'm not
planning on dying anytime soon, but

you start to, wonder, what is this
all about and why am I doing it?

And what is important to me as a person
and how can I bring that to all the

people that work in our organization?

So I'm spending a lot of time on that.

And then just staying physically healthy.

Honestly, you the pandemic has
been very difficult for all of us

getting exercise, getting outside,
taking care of your mental health.

I, I had a really bad of Covid.

I'm now over it.

Keep the mask on.

I think that's another big part
of life for me right now is just

making sure I don't get sick
and have some kind of accident

Edwin: I'd love to get a final thought.

Maybe one thing, one actionable
recommendation you could

share to the growing business
leader who's listening today.

Josh: I think the one thing I would
leave you with as a business person

or a leader is, Forgive yourself.

Take care of yourself.

I think there's a lot of talk about
how leaders can make it easier on

their teams, and you, you have a lot of
stress too, . So you know, get a coach.

Take some time off.

Go for a walk, go for a bike ride.

Take some vacation.

Talk to your spouse or
your significant other.

Spend some time with your kids.

Get a dog, whatever it may be.

If you're more secure and happy, and
focused, and centered in your life,

the rest of your team will be too.

Sometimes you have to force yourself
to do that because you're doing so many

things for the organization all the time.

So maybe I'd leave you with that.

That's

Edwin: great.

I appreciate that.

Josh, thank you for joining us on
the Business Leadership Podcast.

Thank

Josh: you, Edwin.

Edwin: That's it.

Biz Leaders.

Thank you for joining me
on another episode of the

Business Leadership Podcast.

This was episode number 1 71
with Josh Buren was a, that

was a amazing conversation.

There were so many interesting
points and different things that

I've never thought of, but one
that really hit home for me was.

He basically said that if you are more
secure and happy or focused and centered

in your life, the rest of your team
will be too, which is really important.

And that means everything, especially
for someone like myself who has a young

family who really puts an emphasis on time
spent with them, experiences with them.

And the key is to share.

Share this time, share this quality
time, these experiences with your.

Your stakeholders, your clients even,
which is an interesting thing that

happens, especially when I do this.

Um, it sort of gives these people
your team permission to also spend

that quality time with those who
are important in their lives.

For more information about Josh, his
new book, irresistible, and any other

resources that we shared, please go to
the business leadership.com/ 1 71 or

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