The Business Leadership Podcast

You are listening to the Business
Leadership Podcast with Edwin.

Paul: I'm Paul Newton, creative producer
of this future narrator mini series,

and I'm joined by Edwin Fzo, the host
of the Business Leadership podcast.

We're recording live at Web Summit
Vancouver 2025, where we're exploring

how leaders today shape the future, not
just through strategy, but through story.

We believe that a strong point of
view is what inspires communities,

builds movements, and cuts through
the noise in uncertain times.

So let's dive into this conversation.

Today's guest is P, pioneering the
Future where your AI twin doesn't replace

you, but empowers you, Natalie Monbiot.

Natalie: Very good

Paul: is the founder of a virtual
human economy where she's advancing

pro-human AI solutions that scale
leadership, unlock hidden talent and

extend identity in meaningful ways.

I.

Her work sits at the powerful
intersection of AI, identity and

agency reshaping how we show up and
succeed in a machine readable world.

As a founding executive at Hour one,
one of the first AI avatar companies,

Natalie helped define the virtual
human space, launching an economy

built around real people and real.

Compensation, her TEDx talk.

Can your digital twin be trustworthy
and features in the Wall Street

Journal, MIT Tech Review?

Review and the information underscore
her role as a global voice for ethical,

empowering AI from the stages of Web
Summit and SXSW to advising some of

the world's most recognizable brands.

Natalie has always lived at
the edge of innovation, turning

frontier tech into tools that
work for people, not against them.

Edwin: Welcome to the
Business Leadership Podcast.

Natalie, how are you doing?

I'm doing well, thank you.

Um, I'm, I'm super, super excited.

Um, just, just learned that
Natalie's also Filipino like me,

so I'm just like, oh, this is it.

We, we might go somewhere else and
talk about other things, but we're, but

we're here at Web Summit Vancouver, uh,
I guess day two, you had an amazing,

uh, you were on stage earlier today.

I'd love it if you could just share, um.

The first thing or maybe a
highlight of your time here so far?

Natalie: Sure.

Uh, let's see.

Well, I enjoyed opening the AI stage
this morning and, um, being able to

actually reminisce on the fact that
I've been in this space for a really

long time as I was thinking about
my opening remarks for the AI stage.

And introducing what I'm doing now,
which is this, um, AI twin practice.

It reminded me that my first
ever, uh, time at, uh, web Summit

was actually collision 2016.

Edwin: Oh, wow.

Natalie: Yeah.

So basically this conference, but
in 2016 when it was in New Orleans.

Edwin: Mm-hmm.

Natalie: And the topic then was
commercial applications of ai.

I was like, what on earth
was I talking about in 2016?

And so I watched the video, which
is always very painful to watch

yourself on video, of course,
especially a long time ago.

And

Natalie: I was like, wow.

I was super passionate about what I'm
passionate about today, which is using ai.

To personalize experiences mm-hmm.

And conversations

mm-hmm.

Natalie: And interactions
with human beings and using

personas, AI personas to do that.

So, um, so in answer to your question,
what has, what have I enjoyed most

is kind of like tracking my history
with Web Summit and AI back to that

point, and reflecting on my journey,
which goes really deeply into the

AI twin space, having co-founded.

One of the early AI avatar startups.

And then fast forward to
kind of what I'm doing now.

Edwin: Well, I'm, I'm happy to be
celebrating that milestone here

with you and that reflection that,
thank you for bringing down that.

Those are quite

Natalie: aging, but Yes.

I mean, but we're Filipino,
so it, hiding it, you look

Edwin: amazing.

Um, I guess, why don't we start here,
Natalie, if you could tell us about v

you know, v Virtual Human Economy and.

Basically the problem that you're solving
in the world of ai, twins and identity,

Natalie: mm-hmm.

So the virtual human economy is my thesis
and kind of a term that I coined, uh, to

signify an era when we can use, create and
deploy our AI selves for our own profit.

Like we can benefit and profit from
having our AI extensions mm-hmm.

Providing that we own them and
we dictate them and we have

control over them, and we use them
purposefully and with imagination.

Hmm.

So that's what the
virtual human economy is.

And at my previous startup, every
avatar that we made available on our

platform actually had a real human being
behind the avatar that got paid for.

AI appearances.

So basically a pass, a new
form of passive income.

And that's probably the thing that really
stuck with me from that whole experience,

um, that whole startup experience.

And so, uh, when it comes to the virtual
human economy, I want to kind of extend

this idea of, um, having AI twins
that can empower us as individuals and

empower us as organizations as well.

Um, but thinking about an AI
twin, not just as an avatar.

But thinking about, um, it in a, kind of,
in a deeper sense, like avatars about,

you know, cloning how you look and very
few of us trade on how we look, right?

Right.

But a lot of us trade on our wisdom,
our knowledge, our experience, our

playbook, you know, that we've, um,
acquired and refined over the years.

So what the virtual human uh,
economy practice is about.

Is creating these custom AI twins,
usually for executives or people who

are, you know, embody a lot of knowledge
and wisdom that that other people

can benefit from, and to be able to
replicate that and enrich it and make

it available on a one-to-one basis, to
out, you know, to the people that you,

that you want to have access to this so.

An example will be healthcare, CEO, who
oversees a few thousand employees and

has acquired a company with another few
thousand employees and wants everybody

to feel connected to the organization.

Mm-hmm.

Natalie: And to feel empowered
with knowledge and insight

and to feel connected to the
culture of the organization.

And so, uh, these, um, so he's
creating his AI twin that's available,

gonna be made available in Slack.

As kind of like a persona, the
CEO persona that you can chat to

anytime, get feedback on staff.

Also pick up the, pick up the phone, ask
me anything anytime to, um, the CEO's

AI and, um, saves the CEOA lot of time
and to refocus that on strategic work

and, you know, empowers other people to
know a lot more and feel more connected.

So that would be one example.

Edwin: I mean, it's,
it's, it's really unique.

You're, you're clearly like.

Figuring on a very specific use
case when it comes to AI in terms of

allowing in this use case example,
I know it's just example, Natalie.

Mm-hmm.

Um, allowing them to leverage the
technology so they could stay in more high

impact tasks, jobs, whatever that may be.

And of course, it's important,
um, to be there with your team.

Mm-hmm.

But allowing this available for
anyone everywhere is amazing.

Yeah.

Natalie: It's definitely not a cop out.

It's basically No, no it's not.

It's like.

It's the opposite.

It's like I always think about AI
as actually the best way to use AI

is not to outsource stuff and like
not do so many things yourself.

It's actually more to free you to do more.

Mm-hmm.

And if you, and to lean in to whatever
it is that you are trying to do more

and to be exercise your human ingenuity.

Mm-hmm.

So if you are able to like not say
repetitive things all day, then,

which is tedious, but also easier.

Than thinking Right?

And being creative and kind of really
investing in what needs to be done

and how things can be done better
and what new things can be created.

That's actually hard work.

Yeah.

Uh, so I think that AI is a
mirror to us to actually do

more, do more harder things.

Edwin: Yeah.

No, no, it's, it, it's amazing.

And you know, it's clear from your
bio, the introduction Paul did and,

and even the context that you have
in terms of the milestones here

within the web summit, the collision.

I'm curious, aside from the time
spent within the industry and I

like, what's your unique point
of view that allows you to.

Be the person to solve this problem.

Natalie: So I feel like I've had
such passion for this subject.

Mm-hmm.

And vision for this subject.

And then also experience
delivering on this, having built

a startup like on this premise.

And so, yeah, I feel like, I feel like
at this point in my life, and also

in this era of ai, like doubling down
on yourself and your own authenticity

and your own permission to do things.

Is really important.

And I feel like that's what I'm
doing at this point in my career.

It's like, what feels right?

Where can I genuinely create value?

And what feels super authentic to
me and that I'm passionate about?

And you know, it's not like, oh,
come here and buy an AI twin.

Like, people need to understand
what on earth that is.

Mm-hmm.

And what the value is.

And so I have, I feel, I have the energy
and the passion and the experience

to like, bring that to people,
um, that it could be relevant to.

Paul: Yeah.

And then, uh, I saw that you, you
had the TEDx talk, you know, can

your AI b twin be trustworthy?

And, um, just, uh, how do, how
do you navigate that, uh, with

all the, the mistrust around it?

Natalie: Yeah.

Actually it's pretty interesting.

When we founded, uh, our one in 2019,
the only examples of kind of like.

They weren't even called
avatars at that time.

They were called synthetic
characters, right?

The only examples of this
technology in use was deep fakes.

Okay?

Deep fakes being like, you know, um,
a, a replica of you as a human that you

did not consent to, and that is most
likely being used to defame you or.

To spread some disinformation.

So that was the only example of
like that technology being deployed

in the wild and actually, yeah,
only just like barely in the wild.

But all the examples were bad.

And so it's like, well, how can we
sanitize this technology and actually

use it in a way that is trustworthy
and useful and can benefit people

and society and businesses and so.

We went through a process of establishing
ethical, um, boundaries that made

this technology, uh, interesting
and, and ultimately used by big

corporations that, you know, like, you
know, passed the sniff test, right?

It's like it needs to be something that is
seen as genuinely useful and trustworthy.

So how do we do that?

We, um, we implemented a
framework which, uh, meant that

every avatar on our platform.

But, but backed by a human being.

Those human beings all provided explicit
consent to having their avatar created.

And then also within that agreement, uh,
they, you know, uh, we paid them, right?

So like, let's say, uh, you know,
micropayments for them for the

number of appearances that they
would have as an AI character.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, so we did that.

And then also transparency
into the videos themselves.

Always marking within the video
that this is actually AI generated.

Like even though this might look real,
what you are looking at was made using ai.

So before any of these protocols that
now exist, um, were launch and made more

widely available, and we're seeing, um,
the content authenticity initiative,

which is spearheaded by Adobe with a
C two p, a protocol in, you know, uh.

So embedding crypto cryptographic keys
in the content so that you can actually

see the provenance of the content
like that did not exist back then.

Yeah.

So we used to just mark our own videos
with our own little, like watermark,

and then as things became available,
these protocols became available.

We were actually the first to
implement, um, that C two PA

protocol in, in, into our platform.

So I think we just had
some strong values and.

Uh, that made what we were doing
trustworthy at the end of the day.

I think that's, um, it's, uh, if it's not
trustworthy, people aren't gonna use it.

Not only is it not good, no one's
gonna use it, so you're not gonna

make any money out of it either.

Yeah.

Paul: And, and then you're still
capturing that, that authentic piece

of, of the human and some, and the
what makes them so unique and so, uh,

such a leader and, and putting that in

Natalie: mm-hmm.

Paul: So that they can, like you
said, get to the good stuff and,

and do what they're really good at.

Natalie: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So, um, yeah, exactly.

I think ultimately the real
value isn't just, oh, I managed

to like, find a new way to make.

Money or you know, have some kind
of passive income or I was able to

outsource stuff I didn't wanna do.

It's like, what are you then gonna do
at that time that you have brought back?

How are you gonna, you
know, what sort how?

And I think the fact that we can buy
our time back means that we need to

think a lot more about intentionality.

Like what is it that we're
trying to do as humans?

Like.

This, I I the idea of just like
a, you a normal job, entry level

job where you're kind of like
doing something on, on repeat.

Like those jobs are arguably, you
know, like going to go away with ai.

Yeah.

So people are gonna have to be much more
imaginative and purposeful about what

it is they want to do with their time.

Starting at an earlier age,
probably, um, than they used to.

Paul: Yeah, and I mean, I mean, that
really ought to be very exciting

for, for people to know that,
you know, it's no longer valuable

to do grunt or uh, repetitive.

I know it's

Natalie: hard though, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's like if you actually look, you, you
can talk about it like, oh, of course it's

better to, you know, do valuable things.

But I mean, it's quite
relaxing, just like.

Coming through your, like feed on
your Instagram feed or like doing

something repetitive or zoning out.

Yeah.

Natalie: Like, you know, that
is, it's easier and I think

we all need that as well.

So it's actually, it's I think a lot
of, not just imagination and focusing

on your purpose and your intentionality,
but also discipline, I think.

Mm-hmm.

Natalie: Discipline's gonna be
really important in order to,

self-discipline is gonna be really
important in order to actually

unlock the value personally from ai.

Paul: Mm.

And then I guess, I mean,
we can't just replace time.

That is freed up with more to do per se.

Mm-hmm.

Like we just have to also acknowledge
that humans do need the, the recharge

or do need some, some zoning to,
to actually access even higher

levels of, of consciousness or

Natalie: Right.

And some people think that's like
a luxury, like, oh, it's easy

to say like, oh, go and do that.

It's like, I, I don't know.

I, I think there's, um.

Again, that requires
intentionality, right?

So if you, you have to believe
that that's a good idea and, and

a goal worth pursuing, you know,
you know, connecting, uh, to more

spiritual ideas and all of that.

Like, that requires believing
that, or even knowing about that

to begin with in order to decide
to spend your time that way, right?

So I think there's gonna be a lot of,
um, I know it's not just education, but

it's like culture needs to adapt to.

Um, to help make life more meaningful.

Paul: Well, there's so
many adaptations, right?

And it's, it's just
hitting us like right now.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And I mean, I think part of it is the
speed at which something like we get

to something really good, really fast.

But emotionally we're not there yet.

Like we didn't, we didn't catch
up because we don't, we haven't

been used to moving that fast.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And so, you know, that zoning

Natalie: or that slowly

Paul: Oh yeah.

Well, well, I mean, we we're
used to moving that slowly.

Yeah.

'cause it's like

Natalie: easy to, in a way, it's like
easy to have a job that just keeps

you really, really, really busy.

Paul: Yeah.

Yeah.

Natalie: But if the busy work disappears,
it's sort of like, you know, uh, a

lot of people like bury themselves in.

And busy work too.

So Yeah, a hundred percent.

Paul: Yeah.

And then, uh, the difficulty or the
tediousness or the, um, you know, the

amount of effort that needed to go into
producing something was, was valued.

Mm-hmm.

And all of a sudden,

Natalie: yeah.

Paul: Gone.

Yeah.

Natalie: But then I think that
energy and time and imagination can

be reinvested into things that you
would never have thought of doing.

Mm-hmm.

And.

Things that need to exist and you can will
into existence by working really hard at

it because you don't need to work really
hard at whatever it was that you, that,

you know, kept your hands full before.

Paul: And, and so your point of view
on this, where did that come from?

Because it didn't just pop up now, like
you've been like that for a long time.

Natalie: Yeah, it's an evolution.

I think I'm just, you know,
it's a mixture between having

the passion and the curiosity.

And just having a vision for something
that I think is very interesting

and important, and also I think.

Like, it's almost like the
underdog or the, the concept

of like, but wait a minute.

It doesn't all have to be all bad.

Like, there, there's a good way,
there's the right way to do this that

not many people have thought about yet.

And so I think part of it is evangelizing
a positive future with AI that, um,

is like more under the radar or not
a lot of people are talking about.

I've always enjoyed discovering
things that are emerging and that I

think are good and exciting and then.

Putting energy behind, willing it into
existence and telling everybody about it.

I think that's kind of what
I've always enjoyed doing.

And um, yeah, and I guess AI is like
something that I happen to feel,

discover, or come into contact with at
a relatively early time in my career

and in the sort of lifespan of ai.

Mm-hmm.

And it interested me then like the
human side of it and that the human

side of AI is just like the story
is evolving and the things that

we can do with it are evolving.

And then I've had, you know,
really tangible hands-on experience

building stuff in this realm,
which has taught me a lot more

things and has shaped my direction.

And yeah, I'm just sort
of like running with it.

Edwin: Natalie, this is, um.

You know, there was a, there was a number
of things that were going through my

head as you, as you, as you and Paul
were talking, going back and forth.

But, but one of the key things that,
that excites me when it comes to AI

is, uh, and, and that's really I think
about a lot, and maybe it's partly, you

know, where we are is when you talked
about when things slow down, actually,

and this is something that fascinates
me, is because if we are, like you said,

if we remove all this busy work, um.

There's gonna be a point where
people won't have no idea.

Just so if you take, and, and I'm not,
I'm an optimist a hundred percent,

but that's what I'm curious at, is
because personal development or this

awareness or this, this inward part
is scary for a lot of people and us as

leaders, people who are listening or
people who are creating and building.

I feel like, you know, it's
also our responsibility Yes.

To, um, enable and
empower and provide this.

AI to everyone.

Mm-hmm.

To

Edwin: do more, but also to
get them to be aware that not

everyone might not wanna do more.

Natalie: Mm-hmm.

Edwin: Right.

And how do we, how do we have
that conversation as well?

Natalie: Yeah.

I think there's a few different ways to.

Um, answer that question.

I think one is,

Edwin: it could be another
episode though, by the way.

That is, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I,

Natalie: so I think that first of all,
people need to app learn to approach

ai, not as a thing to outsource.

That's right.

Everything too, which is very tempting.

And, you know, I, on a day-to-day
basis, I struggle with this as well.

Like, wait a minute, no, I'm having
the ai, like I just asking it to do

too much of the cognitive work and
I actually don't like the result.

The cognitive work is on me.

It can help in some, in some cases, yeah.

But the cognitive work is on me.

I think it's very key to defend
that and to learn how to use AI

in a way to become more creative
instead of to outsource stuff.

I think it's pretty scary that, I
mean, it's not no surprise that studies

have shown that if you regularly use
large language models to do work for

you, your cognitive capacity goes.

Down, you basically become dumber.

Edwin: I started, I started
writing emails again.

Right.

Just, just, just to get that back to me.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

'cause it's like, you know,
it's from Grammarly to AI now.

Yeah, I know.

It's like, I'm like, you know what?

I'm gonna write these emails myself.

Yeah,

Natalie: yeah.

And I think, you know, it's
defending your cognitive.

Uh, abilities is like the
first line of defense.

Yeah.

And then it's like, okay, so but
what can I do that I couldn't

do before with the help of ai?

So I think it's like education, seeing
how AI can empower you as an individual

to do more, to be more creative.

I think that that's what AI is for
and it needs to be communicated

that way and taught that way.

Edwin: Yeah.

And I think it has to come from the
people who are for in this space.

Um.

Natalie, um, I think, and me and
Paul probably could talk about

this, even go to the bar and
keep talking about this forever.

Um, I'd love it if you could just
share your thoughts, uh, maybe on the

business leadership aspect, you know,
for, you know, when it comes to AI

adoption, whether it's internal to
your teams or adoption, you know, what

comes to mind, uh, for a final thought
advice to, to the founder CEOs or, or

business leaders who are listening today?

Natalie: Um, let's see.

For them, I'd say.

Really value your own personal
experience and your wisdom

and reflect on what that is.

'cause that is super valuable.

And, um, continue to build on that.

Like that is something that makes
you distinct and only you have that

and only you as a human have that,
like not just comparing to, you

know, to other humans, but also.

To ai, like AI does not have
personal, real world experience

for other humans to learn from.

Mm-hmm.

It's

Natalie: hard to be inspired,
I think, by what AI tells you.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but it is easy to connect and feel
inspired by what other human beings

on this human journey have achieved.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Natalie: So I think doubling down
and really focusing and reflecting

on what does make you wise and.

It.

What's been kind of interesting is like
a lot of people have approached about

AI twin stuff in different capacities,
and you know, especially like knowledge

workers, they're like, but why would
people want my knowledge versus an ai?

I'm like, wait a minute.

You're a consultant that
trades off your knowledge.

Like what is it about, like, is
there some sort of insecurity?

Yeah.

Natalie: There, yeah.

I mean that is a very, it
was a very important insight.

Mm.

Natalie: Wait a minute,
like, okay, so if you don't.

Sort of package up and separate your
knowledge or, or if you're separating your

knowledge from you, is your knowledge just
then a commodity that competes with ai?

That's kind of interesting.

So the insight that I got from
these consultants is actually,

it's you plus your knowledge.

Mm-hmm.

That's what's valuable.

I love that.

Yeah.

Right.

And if you basically package it
up and sort of a separate from

you, then it becomes competitive.

With knowledge from ai.

So, and you'll

Edwin: lose actually.

Natalie: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And so, um, connecting it to
you, I think is important.

Thank you for joining us on the
Business Leadership Podcast.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

Amazing.

You are listening to the Business
Leadership Podcast with Edwin.